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Oldtimers' Halo 2 Roundtable DiscussionOn December 7, 2004, a collection of 'oldtimers' - folks who'd been around the Halo community (and in many cases, the Bungie community before that) for a significant amount of time - got together to discuss the then-recent release of Halo 2. The general feeling on the interwebs at the time was that Halo 2 had some problems - that it hadn't lived up to the hype, or even to its potential. These guys - Miguel "Freewill" Chavez, Mark "Have Blue" Levin, David "Narcogen" Josselyn, Claude "Louis Wu" Errera, Tom "mnemesis" Van Sinden, Randall "rg" Glass, Rob "FrogBlast" Thibadeau, and Richard "Sep7imus" Heppner - wanted to try and pin down where Halo 2 might have fallen down, with the idea that this information might help down the road, with future Halo games. (Given that it's being published for the first time in March 2008, more than three years after the chat took place and over 6 months since Halo 3 hit store shelves, it might be said that the overall goal was not met. However, it's still an interesting discussion, from a group that is generally VERY pro-Bungie and (for the most part) pro-Halo, and readers have requested that it be made public - so we're making it public. With the exception of some trimming at the start and the end of the chat (mostly joining and leaving), it's being presented in its raw form, unedited. If you feel the need to judge it, please keep in mind that it was a free-flowing chat, not a formal written document.) Sep7imus: Where's Froggie? rg: bottom of Halo? Have Blue: hmm... miguel looks like a cat to me Louis Wu: he's activating BSODs on regret Frogblast has joined this chat. Louis Wu: he's back now. Frogblast: hi:) Louis Wu: nice new trick, fb. :) Frogblast: thanks Freewill has joined this chat. Have Blue: yeah hehe rg: so who exactly do i bill my time to? ;) Louis Wu: mig Have Blue: when does the pizza arrive? rg: got my beer Narcogen: is it GOOD PIZZA? Sep7imus: mmm... pizza. Freewill: sorry for pulling you guys over Narcogen: heh.. I'm going to have to make do with coffee, it's almost 9 AM :) rg: 6:41 pm tuesday Freewill: aright, I klilled those invites Have Blue: 9:40 Louis Wu: lol rg: so i'll start... Half-life 2, while lacking Multiplayer, is still a pretty good game. Narcogen: I thought we were reviewing Metroid Prime 2? Have Blue: it's not lacking multiplayer any more... they posted some new maps Narcogen: and anyway HL2 has MP now rg: KOTOR 2? Sep7imus: I thought it Was Prince of Persia 3... Have Blue: you can kill people by hurling toilets at them Freewill: ok my isight is up and running Have Blue: obviously this is far better than halo 2 mnemesis: I thought we were talking about anime Sep7imus: oh joy. Narcogen: in SOVIET RUSSIA, toilets hurl into you! rg: nasty Frogblast: lol Narcogen: ok, we're never going to get anywhere if we start like this :) Louis Wu: eww Freewill: aright Freewill: so lets try to use old style rg: i was hoping to go thru Halo 2 again but didn't have time Freewill: chatting etiquette Freewill: are we cool witht that? Louis Wu: ... Louis Wu: what's old style? Narcogen: Mig is evoking the no mom jokes rule rg: yeah Sep7imus has left this chat. Freewill: sept left chat? Freewill: rules are Freewill: one person gets to talk at a tiome Sep7imus has joined this chat. Freewill: when done, Freewill: types g/q Freewill: er Freewill: g/a Freewill: for go ahead Freewill: and then next person that wants to say something does so Freewill: my excuse for a poor performance tonite is that I just got back from a much longer work day than I expected Freewill: so I just barely had time to get here and setup the chat Freewill: i have no notes, and I WANTED notes! Freewill: ah well Freewill: so Freewill: I'll make an opening statemtn Freewill: and then hand it to whoever wants it next Freewill: and so we being Freewill: begin Freewill: It's the 7th btw... gah Narcogen: well, 8th here :) Have Blue: you don't count Narcogen: yeah yeah rg: america rules Sep7imus: he said "ga" not "g/a" Narcogen: I know, we're waiting for the opening statement. Sep7imus: (actually, "gah") Freewill: we're here assembled to try to make sense of the community and our own personal reactions to the game that was, for many of us, a focal point of energy over the last few months mnemesis: months? Narcogen: years... rg: years Have Blue: he said months not g/a Freewill: that game of course is Halo 2. It goes without saying that many of probably played it the very nite we received it in our grubby hands Freewill: reactions to the game have been pretty much all over the radar Freewill: and it's confusing in a way to see just how varied a reaction it has received Freewill: so under the old adage that more heads are better than one Freewill: we are here assembled to fight it out to the death... er, no.. to calmly discuss this thing called Halo 2 Freewill: Before I hand it off Freewill: let me ask that we first start from way way back Freewill: sorry.... let me retype that Freewill: not to the fine details of the game, but to the game itself. what kind of luggage did it bring with itself, and how did it 'set itself up' for the position it's in now? Freewill: g/a Louis Wu: Well, some of that is easy. Louis Wu: We were expecting brand-new AI... Louis Wu: a continuation of the Halo story (for me, that included the novels)... Louis Wu: new goodies, and new ways to use them. Louis Wu: it was billed as everything Halo should have been, had they had more time Louis Wu: I think what came out was Halo, redone, but just as rushed as the first version. Louis Wu: g/a (for now :) ) Freewill: anyone else? Narcogen: That sound about right. Have Blue: ::typing:: Sep7imus: Apparently, it was going to about bacon... and ninjas. mnemesis: I remember there being fire involved somehow, too Freewill: HB, break up the sentences dude Narcogen: It does seem just as rushed, and it seems as if the production of new assets (models, textures, locations) trumped anything else Narcogen: as if huge portions of the game were thrown away at the last minute, eating time that would have been used to create those things Claude mentioned Narcogen: Mig, perhaps you should act as moderator and hand off from one to the next, lag is meaning we all think we're picking up the hat :) Freewill: ok narc, you go tthe floor Narcogen: I agree, it seemed rushed Narcogen: lots of old elements got reused, apparently little touched, like AI Narcogen: some elements that seemed to work well in the old game, except for minor points Narcogen: say, the physics engine, aside from death animations Narcogen: got completely replaced Narcogen: and whole portions of the game seem either divorced from the story, or at least do very little to advance it Narcogen: If I could get Bungie to answer one question, I'd want to know what ate up the time-- why three years was not enough for Halo 2, given what they did with the first game under what seemed like more pressure Narcogen: g/a Freewill: ok, let me ask then Have Blue: daammit Have Blue: too much text :( Louis Wu: rotfl Have Blue: One of the biggest factors that affected "how the game set itself up" was the tricky balance between how much Bungie wanted to reveal of the game and how much the community wanted to know about it. Freewill: g/a mark Have Blue: The desire to surprise and to be surprised (witness the furor over spoilers in media and online after the game leaked) Have Blue: necessitated marketing and releasing material that focused almost exclusively on a very small segment of the single-player campaign. Have Blue: This was, in my opinion, the major factor that distorted expectations of that aspect. Freewill: what do you think Freewill: would have been our reactions Freewill: if we had been told that half the game we played as MC and the other half as Arbiter? Sep7imus: We would have been looking forward to it. Louis Wu: I'm not sure about that. Frogblast: I wouldn't have liked to have had that spoiled. Have Blue: I would have been initially opposed to it Sep7imus: We would have thought it was going to be the coolest thing possible in a game... that was the reaction to almost everything Bungie leaked. Louis Wu: hehe - fair enough. Freewill: would that have prepped us in advance of knowing it was no longer going to be us AS the MC? Narcogen: I also would not have wanted that spoiled Narcogen: Besides, the fans that did not want it would have wanted their voices heard Narcogen: and game design is not a democratic process, I don't think :) Have Blue: you nailed it, mig- that's what playing as the arbiter takes away from the first game Have Blue: even when you go back to the chief rg: i digged the Arbiter story Freewill: I would have had to balance the reaction to the coolness of being an elite.... mnemesis: I think they (and probably us too) worried too much about "spoiling" stuff Freewill: vs the distortion of storyflow and immersion as we bopped back and forth from mc to elite Louis Wu: I would have found playing as the arbiter far more interesting had there been ANY change whatsoever in my gameplay when it happened. Louis Wu: (besides HUD color.) mnemesis: bingo Frogblast: yes! Narcogen: the HUD color changed? Sep7imus: I don't think that playing as the Arbiter was something that should NOT have been spoiled. It's not like it was a plot twist. It was a narrative decision. Freewill: there's of course another possibility, as Claude is mentioning now... could it have been done better? mnemesis: we shouldn't be able to use human weapons, can jump farther, etc. Narcogen: I thought it was a way of living up to the old promise of playing either side of a massive battle rg: well, the Covenant are carbon copies.. look at the vehicles (and some of the weapons) g/a Freewill: that's of course speaking to those folks that think it was a problem to begin with Sep7imus: Yeah, I LIKED playing as the Arbiter. Have Blue: The cloaking device does make a pretty big difference in playing as the arbiter Have Blue: it lets you do different things from the chief Louis Wu: I might agree with you, mark... if I remembered to use it. :( Narcogen: or would if it lasted longer... but it was still a small change Narcogen: true mnemesis: except for the naggy Elite who is constantly telling you where to go Sep7imus: It DID detract from the identification with the Chief, I guess. But that's a pretty simplistic identification, I believe. Narcogen: sometimes I hit the button expecting a flashlight Freewill: I didn't mind it in terms of playing as him... I did mind it as how it broke up the story Louis Wu: they kept CALLING you chief, even when you were the arbiter. Louis Wu: that was annoying. Louis Wu: and broke immersion. mnemesis: I thought the story flowed nicely back and forth Sep7imus: (they did?) Have Blue: louis- I never saw that myself, and I'd count it as a bug Narcogen: etiquette... breaking... down! Have Blue: it's also pretty hard to trigger Narcogen: me neither, I never heard them call arbiter "chief" Freewill: I don't know... one minute I'm being sucked down into the water by the gravemind... the next? I'm back with the elites Louis Wu: happened to me at least twice. Louis Wu: the bad one was the endgame. Narcogen: Mig, I think it has to do with changing gameplay Narcogen: aside from the fact that not all grunts attack you, it's difficult to even be reminded that you're the arbiter Narcogen: hence, I think, all the chatty elites mnemesis: and how come, if we're the big-deal Arbiter, we have the crappy active camo? Narcogen: speaking of which, where the heck are those 20k lines of combat dialogue? Sep7imus: (old armor) Frogblast: I understand that it breaks up the story, but the story opens with the Arbiter... following both stories is consitent throughout... from beginning to end. Narcogen: I've only played the game through ONCE and I keep hearing the same stuff Freewill: well this only my personal experience, but the other thing that bugged me as I was told there was an exponential growth in dialogue, yet I felt heard even less in Halo 2 Narcogen: yes Sep7imus: Dialogue is also harder to hear... Louis Wu: same here, mig. Have Blue: The problem is that the chief's stories tend to end on cliffhangars, and the Arbiter's chapters are pretty self-contained Narcogen: "coward" "we have little time arbiter" "it is well hidden" "stupid jackal, say thanks" Sep7imus: because of the proximity voice thing. Have Blue: you're always anxious to see what happened to the chief, and not the other way around Freewill: ok, let's switch tracks Freewill: graphics wise, any comments? Freewill: why don't you take Freewill: the floor, frogblast on this one if you wish Frogblast: Ok... Frogblast: One of the first things I did when playing the game was to check out a texture while zoomed in. Frogblast: I rmember zooming in on a boulder in the original Halo (on the level Halo) and I was amazed by the level of detail. Frogblast: But the first time I tried it in this game, I wasn't blown away by the detail that I saw Freewill: was it the same or less? Frogblast: It seemed less :( Freewill: did anything make up for that loss of detail? Louis Wu: that would make sense... they upped the bumpmapping, so they could reduce the number of polygons Freewill: any more to say FB? rg: what's cheaper to process, more polys or lots of bumps? Frogblast: Things seem shinier, as mentioned before. g/a Louis Wu: bumps are cheaper Freewill: how about the geometry itself, FB? since Freewill: you spend alot of time pouring over the nooks and crannies of the levels Frogblast: I'm very satisfied with the geometry... Freewill: is it 'tighter' or the same as before in terms of areas that you could take advantage of? Frogblast: they spent a lot of time filling in those nooks and crannies when they didn't have to. Freewill: in Halo 2? Frogblast: Yes. I don't feel like it is tighter.. Frogblast: although I hear that alot. Sep7imus: (Agreed. They seem to have anticipated the Frogblast style exploring of the entire maps.) mnemesis: why on earth would they want to guard against that? Freewill: does anyone know if the modelers in halo 2 were all new to Halo? Did some level makers in Halo 1 work on Halo 2? Sep7imus: I would assume so... Freewill: to which? rg: well, let me bring up the credits Have Blue: and I'll look in the manuals Sep7imus: and I'll wait for you guys to answer. Frogblast: Ferrex has his name hidden in at least two maps. Freewill: we don't have to dig too deep, just curious. I wasn't sure if some of the new modeling blood in the game were from architectural backgrounds Narcogen: heh... more rex rooms? rg: halo 2: Design Leads Paul Bertone ,Jaime Griesemer rg: halo 1: Lead Designer John Howard Louis Wu: they had all these environment artists for halo 2. Freewill: a lead to me means they don't do actual nitty gritty of creating the levels Louis Wu: there weren't any for halo. Narcogen: speaking of Jaime, anybody else hear peasant voices yelling "woo" when they gave Sarge and Chief their medals? Freewill: don't recall Have Blue: the credits are organized differently Freewill: the hierarchy is different because the number of folks on it is way different rg: i'm sure the leads define the feel of it Sep7imus: In any case, when I replayed a few levels today, I felt like they were really quite wide open, with a lot of choices about how to approach battles and explore and stuff. Freewill: aye, but not the actual making sure this vector is closed off properly... Sep7imus: What's anyone else's sense of that. Freewill: right, Sept, go ahead and chat a bit about that Freewill: well ok Freewill: I'll say this Freewill: it feels big, but it feels like clever trickery to make me think it's big. That doesn't mean... Freewill: I think they're evil for doing so, I'm sure there were justifications for it, but I had no sense of sweeping areas, unless they were also very narrowly defined as to how I could go Freewill: the obvious is the metropolis bridge Narcogen: yes rg: levels felt too confining, constricted. i didn't feel that there was as much space to move around in as Halo 1 Narcogen: and the Regret gondolas Freewill: that's a HUGE amount of acreage Freewill: but it's just one long tunnel really Narcogen: but most of it not playable Have Blue: I felt that Halo 2 is careful to funnel you into a set of approved ways Have Blue: to beat a scenario Freewill: aye, the gondolas as well Louis Wu: I was replaying the beginning of delta halo this weekend... and I was pretty disappointed at one point. Have Blue: whereas halo 1 had fewer obvious ways but more general possibilities Narcogen: there's no play area as large or flexible as the open areas of AotCR/TB Louis Wu: I had gotten stuck on the last dropship - I was nearly out of ammo, and the red sword elite kept coming up and kicking my ass before I could figure out how to kill him. Have Blue: there's nothing like the AOTCR banshee jack in halo 2, where it completely changes Sep7imus: Those (bridge, gondolas) are the exceptions, though. Freewill: Sept is there an area that you think is in contrast to those? Louis Wu: Finally, I headed over the hill (on the road to the bridge) before the dropship landed. Killed the jackals... picked up a sniper... came back. Louis Wu: and none of the last wave were still there. :( That's bad design, and it rarely happened in Halo. Sep7imus: Yeah, there is... Sep7imus: /me struggles to remember the level, though. Freewill: general descrip will be fine, I'm sure Freewill: while you think about that Freewill: I'd like to pour some rage at one group Freewill: the MEDIA Freewill: if these aren't people that aren't some of the stupidest folks on earth Narcogen: for overhyping it before release, or overrating it post-release? Freewill: to think that they are bending over backwards to give Halo 2 the uber-awards and all that Louis Wu: the overrating bugged me. Sep7imus: Numerous times, approaching the "Library" as the Arbiter, there were a bunch of wide open spaces with bridges, and choices about which vehicles to take to each new encounter. Sep7imus: (just had to get that off my chest) Louis Wu: (I'd finished the game by the time those first reviews came out, and I coudln't understand the scores.) Freewill: and yet, in my mind, Halo 2 has the *same* amount of repetitiveness that Halo 1 had. I had no problem with it in 1, I don't care about it in 2, but in 1 everyone ragged on Bungie for it Sep7imus: yeah, there was some pretty hyperbolic press coverage. Narcogen: yes, mig, same here Narcogen: in fact, I think 2 has MORE repetetiveness Freewill: that's actually a good point Sept, sorry to co-opt your thinking on that Have Blue: I don't think Halo 2 is as repetitive as Halo 1, although it's definitely still in there rg: when you get a free trip to Bungie HQ to play the game early, who's gonna rag on em later in the magazine? Sep7imus: It's not as repetitive as Halo1. I sort of miss it, actually. Louis Wu: I think the gameplay was as repetitive, but the environments were not. It was a bit deceptive. Freewill: but yes, those open spaces as the elite are just that, open spaces... but what killed me about it is that they were the least creative in terms of what could be done with those open spaces Have Blue: and I think the stratospheric ratings are including multiplayer, which we haven't gotten to yet Narcogen: and I agree with sept, the whole SI/QZ set was much better than h1's library for that reason Narcogen: mig, can I grab the floor for a bit on repetition? Freewill: I know we've said it over and over again Freewill: let me just finish this thought Narcogen: sure Freewill: but there was some hidden bit of genius, whether accidental or not, in levels like AOTC or T&R. I felt like they took their time in making it Freewill: juicy enough to play over and over again. But those library levels in those wide open spaces in H2 just don't have that flavor Freewill: unfortunately, and of course in my opinion. Freewill: g/a Narcogen: just to follow, I think it has to do with being rushed Narcogen: Bungie KNEW h1 was going to be rushed Narcogen: so I think they scaled back their ambitions Narcogen: and polished everything they had Narcogen: H2 seems much more ambitious Narcogen: ended up being much less than envisioned, and is ROUGH.. everywhere Narcogen: everywhere there are signs of things that look as if they needed more tweaking Narcogen: But on the repetition Narcogen: It's probably the most common complaint about Halo 1 Narcogen: But I think there were really two kinds of repetition Narcogen: the repetition of level geometry, which was either made convenient or dictated by the plot Narcogen: and the repetition of textures in interior areas Narcogen: the former never bothered me much, although the latter did Narcogen: H2 las less of the former, but just as much of the latter Narcogen: When Cortana told me I have to go back through High Charity as MC Narcogen: Just having finished it, with only one Arbiter level intervening Narcogen: knowing I was going to see the same geometry and the same interiors and the same textures Narcogen: except now in the dark, against flood Narcogen: I wasn't scared or excited.. I was just peeved Narcogen: I was wondering how to get through that part as quickly as possible Narcogen: g/a Frogblast: (btw I think High Charity is one of the shortest levels) Narcogen: thank goodness, too Freewill: shall we jump to something else, or anyone else wanna say something? Sep7imus: I just want to say that... mnemesis: Can anyone tell me why H2 was rushed? Three years is a long time with no buyouts, platform changes, etc. rg: halo 2's lighting wasn't bright enough mnemesis: Why did they come away from E3 (2003?) thinking they had nothing and had to start over? Narcogen: I think we all want to know why it's rushed Freewill: let sept speak Sep7imus: I LIKED the repetition in Halo 1 because it felt like a real place. The bouncing around in Halo 2 from one planet to another made it feel less real. Freewill: I just felt amazed Freewill: that folks slammed the repeition in 1, but in 2 they didn't even notice it Sep7imus: It made sense to go back through the levels (which played REALLY differently backwards) in Halo 1. Freewill: just because the levels are bigger and more interesting in shape Louis Wu: but in reality were tunnels. :( Louis Wu: (with pretty walls.) Sep7imus: Well, they ARE bigger and more interesting in shape. Freewill: if they're stacked a-b-c-d that's still repetition! Narcogen: interesting in shape, but not so much in play Louis Wu: I never felt lost in AotCR Frogblast: actually . . .aa-bb-cc Frogblast: hehe Narcogen: thinking of "nothing but jackal" Sep7imus: And yeah, there are tunnels but each tunnel leads you to the next different encounter. Louis Wu: When playing the Sentinal area, I got lost a LOT. Louis Wu: kept reversing, covering the same ground. Freewill: pi repeated 10 times is no different than 7 repeated 10 times Sep7imus: agreed... that was confusing, Claude. Have Blue: I didn't really have a problem with that, but Halo 2 has far too few nav points Narcogen: and some of the nav points are confusing Sep7imus: And that's something that the press DID complain about. rg: Cortana provided the Nav points. Narcogen: at the end I thought I was supposed to land the banshee on the scarab or something Narcogen: yeah... where the heck is cortana? Freewill: I didn't really care, just amazed at those same magazines for not seeing it Louis Wu: hehe - I tried that too. :) Narcogen: she hardly gets any lines rg: well, not in the Arbiter, and hardly ever in the MC Have Blue: that's how I beat it on legendary... hide in the scarab and kill the banshees one by one Narcogen: and why are there holo generators every 100 yards in HC? Freewill: yah dialogue really bothered me, but anyway Sep7imus: I landed the Banshee on the Scarab... and then had to hijack another one to complete the level. Narcogen: yeah, sept, me too Louis Wu: Narc mentioned lots more content, but rough... Sep7imus: /me points out that that is the kind of variety of approach that isn't possible in Halo 1. Louis Wu: when we were out there in August, I remember talking to CJ Cowan about this rg: has everybody seen the DVD? Freewill: y Have Blue: y Sep7imus: yes Narcogen: y mnemesis: y Louis Wu: they were less than two weeks from 'content complete' Louis Wu: and cj was amazed that 'new content kept getting checked in' Louis Wu: I was thinking, if they're still bringing in new stuff... how are they integrating it? Louis Wu: it's like they were just trying to fill the gaps with as much junk as they could, Louis Wu: hoping nobody would notice it didn't all fit together. Have Blue: In Halo 1, there were hardly any "unique" things; in Halo 2 there are a ton of things that are used rarely or only once rg: according to the DVD, we know that Bungie basically had nothing after E3 2002. Narcogen: I think there's a conflict in the design between verisimilitude and "fun" Have Blue: now we're back to the idea that it was so much more massively ambitious than the first Have Blue: that even the extra time wasn't enough Narcogen: they've made more realistic environments.. busier ones rg: levels/missions-wise Narcogen: but in a game or story, you need to know what is important Narcogen: detail draws your eye and says "this place/object is important" Narcogen: H1 had lots of blank walls Narcogen: because the walls didn't need to be more than walls Freewill: i think it proves that you can have all the money, people, talent, track-record, and time and it still doesn't guarantee a homerun Narcogen: but EVERYTHING in h2 has a silly amount of detail Sep7imus: yeah, there may be TOO MUCH detail. Narcogen: in Cairo I can't even tell what I'm supposed to shoot at sometimes rg: (hence the pop-in graphics) Narcogen: or where the DOORS are Louis Wu: but not where it counts... as frogblast noted. Narcogen: and.. and the pop-in vs load times? Narcogen: GIVE me a load screen Sep7imus: agreed. mnemesis: lousy trade Narcogen: I can't even tell where levels end Freewill: that's the same problem I had with Halo PC/Mac Narcogen: I want to feel like I accomplished something Narcogen: give me a break to go pee and get another beer mnemesis: I liked the kind of "framed rg: give us a load screen especially when you flip-flop between characters mnemesis: beginning of Silent Cart. Narcogen: yes.. divided the game up into chapters nicely Have Blue: or some sort of indication that you've done so mnemesis: Nothing like that in H2 Freewill: I don't care about loading times, gimme a break.. Have Blue: usually it's not obvious Sep7imus: Yeah, I remeber stopping Have Blue: until you spot the chief or the arbiter on the screen Sep7imus: the game and being surprised that I was on level 5. Freewill: heh Narcogen: the level lists are intentionally misleading Louis Wu: level 1 was a friggin' cutscene. rg: first 2 levels are essentially cutscenes Sep7imus: yeah. Narcogen: level 2 was a tutorial Freewill: i was amazed that the opening level was just that a level! mnemesis: same with Arbiter Frogblast: I kept checking to see how many levels I had finished. I had no idea. Freewill: did anyone notice that... something else that bugged me... Narcogen: yes, and you can't tell what difficulty you've completed each on now Sep7imus: It IS weird, from a narrative perspective... Narcogen: h1 had a lovely level UI and they trashed it... why? Sep7imus: that they chose to break up the narrative with the Arbiter narrative... Freewill: even after I was many levels in... I would stil occasionally get tutorial windows pop up? Sep7imus: but refused to do so with load screens. Narcogen: yeah, I got a tutorial popup in the last level mnemesis: yeah, I got reminded to reload, on Legendary, on Delta Halo. Louis Wu: hehe - mig, before the first online update, in order to unlock foundation, you had to get the banshee roll tutorial in the LAST LEVEL! Sep7imus: yeah... Have Blue: it constantly reminds you your shields are down mnemesis: Like I hadn't done that yet. Freewill: I think I was more than half way finished, and I'm flying a banshee and it's telling me how to flip it Narcogen: I got the banshee bomb tutorial on the last level, just as I was coming in to land at the control room Have Blue: louis- are you saying that's deliberate? I thought it was a workaround for a bug Louis Wu: it was a mistake. rg: i think turning on subtitles adds extra tutorial pop ups Louis Wu: (I think.) Frogblast: Yes a bug last i heard^ Freewill: i played it first time with no subtitles, and got alot of tutorials Sep7imus: I think it was a msitake, too. rg: easy mode or normal? Freewill: normal Have Blue: I have the subtitles set to auto and played on heroic, and I never got tutorials or subtitles Freewill: heroic this second time Sep7imus: I ended up doing the workaround where you play TGJ on co-op with a new profile, to get the tutorial. Have Blue: but the guy still ran me through the "view calibration" in the beginning Louis Wu: I'm still working on heroic. Sep7imus: me too. Freewill: yah, calibration is always there it seems Have Blue: except on co-op Freewill: sheesh, lets move on to something else Narcogen: I did most of the game on heroic, then switched down to normal for the last two so I could finish before this chat :) Have Blue: there it skips the tutorial and the first half of the opening movie Narcogen: ok, yeah, mig.. next topic Freewill: multiplayer Sep7imus: no complaints. Freewill: mark plays that alot, so I'll let him chat about that Louis Wu: this is where the effort went. mnemesis: 'Virtual Couch' sucks ass Louis Wu: k, g/a mark Freewill: strengths and weaknesses rg: wish there was some shield damage when you fall from a great height. Have Blue: The biggest thing about multiplayer is that it creates an even greater Have Blue: split in the community between those who have it and don't Have Blue: lanparties were a pain in the ass, XBL is either right there all the time or not affordable/available Have Blue: and this time the have-nots are literally left with half a game Have Blue: it's also unfortunate that Frankie admitted they don't plan to patch gameplay issues over Live Have Blue: just new maps rg: (halo 2, best marketing tool for XBL) Have Blue: so most of the irritants are here to stay Freewill: g/a? Have Blue: yeah, g/a Have Blue: thinking Freewill: i play it alot as well Freewill: maybe 4 hours a nite rg: nerd Frogblast: (wow) Sep7imus: really? I never see you on. Narcogen: I'll say XBL is impressive and robust.. I've had good games with a 200 ping.. that is impressive Louis Wu: my last game was that humpday challenge. :( Have Blue: I usually do a couple hours Freewill: i think, like Halopc, the game in total has issues, but the MP is so sweet, that even despite the problems I play it again and again Narcogen: damning with faint praise Freewill: i can't really speak to have/have-nots issue... that's something that is always there with any multiplayer game Narcogen: yes, but I see mark's point rg: like gspawn on hbo forums speculated, Halo 1 focused on campaign and tacked on Multi, Halo2 is the exact opposite Freewill: but I know I have had a great time with MP, and feel like I'm back to my old days of Myth Narcogen: with h1 you had more people willing to put up with the pain of doing lanfests because there was no other viable option Have Blue: yeah, it's clear that all the final, down-to-the-wire hours were spent on multi Freewill: hanging out with the same guys, playing over and over again Narcogen: now XBL cuts down that population-- the lanfest-only crowd may not have critical mass any more Freewill: meeting rabble, kicking ass and moving on Have Blue: yes, that's the only way I play. I rarely stay on for long unless I can hook up with 2 or 3 friends Freewill: I dunno Louis Wu: I'm still planning on hosting one in a couple of months, narc rg: multiplayer is basically what grants any modern game its longevity] Louis Wu: and mig just had one last month Freewill: the fact that, much to my surprise, the microphone still works in Lan rg: IMHO Freewill: really makes it great for our lan parties Louis Wu: yep Freewill: we used to have walkie-talkies between rooms Freewill: the headsets really make a difference Frogblast: Well Multi is the thing that will be keeping Halo 2 played for a much longer time than Single player, I can understand why so much energy would go there. Freewill: I'm glad they kept that working in system-link Have Blue: Regardless of what the peanut gallery and MLG may think, removing the pistol was the best change they made Sep7imus: can i jsut say... proximity voice is awesome. Have Blue: now there is more than 1 viable strategy Narcogen: well, I don't know about best, but it was a positive move Freewill: if i may Freewill: back at E3 '04 Freewill: we had a chance to play with Frankie and Sketch Freewill: and even at Claude's last huge LAN, Sketch was there Freewill: they always said the same thing after we played a ton of Halo 1 Freewill: 'i'm always dying, it's no fun for me' Freewill: and I couldn't get what was going on Freewill: is it that their skills aren't as good (if they ever where, honestly speaking for all of us of course) Freewill: or was Halo 2 really different in some way that made them die less Have Blue: The elite top-level players have already discovered Freewill: now honestly, when I first played the betas and all that, I had the opposite reaction, I'm dying ALOT! Dammit! mnemesis: I think they walked away from Halo 1 and never looked back Freewill: it was really bugging me Have Blue: that there is no way to absolutely dominate in halo 2 Narcogen: *cough*CARNEYHOLES*cough* Have Blue: every weapon has a weakness and a way to baet it Have Blue: every strategy can be countered Narcogen: so.. Bungie nerfed h2 multiplayer so they won't suck? Narcogen: :-/ Louis Wu: lol rg: the halo 1 pistol was too powerful. i like the weapon balance in h2 Sep7imus: heh... but it's NOT nerfed, really. Freewill: and thenI think i just got it... the cacophany of the pistols and weapons has been replacing by the anarchy of soldier movement and strategizing Have Blue: it's possible to do *well*, but not 50-3 slayer well mnemesis: they began working on H2 and ONLY played that. Maybe they forgot what was fun, gameplay-wise? Freewill: halo1 wa ALL about hearing weapons constantly fire... on and on and on Have Blue: no, it was about hearing pistols constantly fire :/ rg: sniper pistols Freewill: yes, because pistols were default Sep7imus: and about eerie moments of silence. Louis Wu: but you're right... halo 2 has a lot more running around. Freewill: but now I see that MP has the same chaotic energy but not centered around weapons Have Blue: halo 2 is a a less intense game, but that's not a bad thing Have Blue: reflexes are de-emphasized rg: i actually think it's more intense rg: h2 Have Blue: people with very good reflexes, who depended on them, got a rude surprise Sep7imus: I think it's more intense, too. Freewill: I had to eventually figure that out, because I was so immersed in the MP yet I could obviously see with my own eyes that I wansn't using the pistol anywhere near as much Narcogen: Halo 2 has a pistol? rg: you can still rock with the h2 pistol Have Blue: by "intensity" I mean the constant, neverending exchange of fire that mig mentioned Have Blue: in Halo 2, high-level strategy is important. where you are, what weapons you are carrying, where the rest of your team is Louis Wu: someone needs to explain to me why max would say something like this: http://halo.bungie.org/news.html?item=11565 Have Blue: (halo 2 tried its darndest to ruin slayer, I'm sure) Louis Wu: they spent how much money and how many hours on testing... and he's willing to admit a decision like that came down to 'well, we were used to it'? Frogblast: I thought that was hilarious. Have Blue: a lot of his answers seem like that Freewill: that's something I was goign to touch on later... bungie as developers... the happy accidents and the like Sep7imus: thank GOD for ruining slayer... the stategic team games are WAY more compelling. mnemesis: See? They haven't played H1 in so long, they've completely forgotten some of the good things about it. Narcogen: yes Louis Wu: they were playing without fall damage because it hadn't been implemented yet. ;( Have Blue: they either didn't think an issue was important or didn't put much thought into it Freewill: I actually remember them saying that when I was in their offices Louis Wu: that's nuts. Narcogen: heh... it's a new trick Freewill: it was something that... it was like Narcogen: Sword Diving rg: weak Freewill: 'we're testing the maps, but not everything is on yhet' Narcogen: that a good segue into physics? Freewill: like the flags were sticking half-way out of the ground Freewill: that kind of thing Sep7imus: yeah, fall damage should have been kept in. Narcogen: I remember Bungie hyping their physics, especially vehicle physics Narcogen: in Halo 1 mnemesis: this goes back to the same question: Why start over, and why run out of time? Narcogen: and now they use havok.. like everybody else Narcogen: why? Louis Wu: is it just me, or do hogs not fly any more? Freewill: they don't fly rg: didn't h1 use bits of havok? Narcogen: they don't mnemesis: parts of them do Louis Wu: that part sucks. :( Louis Wu: I miss the jumps. Freewill: they explode and the parts go flying Narcogen: nothing behaves like an h1 player would expect it to Have Blue: I think that the greater part of the complaints over the physics will go away as people adjust to the change Frogblast: they fly :P Have Blue: exactly Freewill: but the days of 3 rockets sending a warthog flying majestically are gone Louis Wu: I was watching a hog jousting match, though. And before the vehicles exploded, they just bumped into each other. Narcogen: I dunno, mark Freewill: as we forget halo1, yes Louis Wu: it looked like bumpercars. Narcogen: watch the grunts on Cairo station Sep7imus: Randy... any thoughts on the aerodynamic abilities of hogs? rg: i like the physics of h2, but it only seems to be used for boxes falling over Narcogen: they roll out of the boarding ships like marbles Freewill: or the fusion cells Narcogen: yeah, I'm still not sure what the real point of that is Have Blue: I mean, complaints over the hog handling rg: well, i haven't really played with any hog jumping or jousting Have Blue: it's different, yes, but I'm not convinced it's better or worse yet Narcogen: flying or handling? Have Blue: driving Narcogen: I like the hog driving better Sep7imus: I like the brake. rg: the hogs certainly seem more grounded Sep7imus: I sucked at driving, before. Narcogen: I do NOT like the way ghosts and banshees handle now Freewill: h1 had brakes Frogblast: I feel like the hog gets caught up on walls much more. Narcogen: h1 brakes were largely pointless, though Have Blue: yeah they did something wierd with the ghost physics Have Blue: it gets caught up on stuff a lot more Freewill: is it less 'squishy' now, the hogs? Have Blue: much less Freewill: we still have time to keep chatting guys? Louis Wu: I'm beginning to hate boarding, too - in crowded areas, I always lose my ghost, because I'm not paying attention to the guy behind me. Have Blue: and they completely changed how rollovers work, and how you get flipped out rg: the hogs in h2 have better traction Frogblast: indeed. Driving through the tunnel in outskirts seemed more difficult than it should have been Narcogen: yeah, mark, but I think that's better-- I seem to get flipped out of rolling hogs less easily now, I like it Sep7imus: given how light you are, everything else seems really heavy, including vehicles and crates, and such. Sep7imus: they seem like they should move more when grenaded or even just meleed. Have Blue: I actually think that's more realistic rg: i like the vehicle boarding.. makes multiplayer more fun mnemesis: the vehicles seem to have an assist to landing right way up Have Blue: the increased weight Louis Wu: I gotta call it quits, mig - but I'm happy to leave this window open for logging purposes. :) Freewill: sure Freewill: you miss the part... mnemesis: boarding is a good way to get rid of red elites in Ghosts rg: l8r wu Freewill: where we try to save this chat from being one long ass bitch session Louis Wu: lol Louis Wu: I was wondering when we were gonna do that.; ) Sep7imus: I've been trying to do that all along. Sep7imus: :P Freewill: i was getting to that part Freewill: :) Louis Wu: yeah, you've been doing well, actually. Have Blue: probably when we switch to formal moderation, and miguel TELLS us when to talk, because everyone's ignoring the g/a rule Freewill: heh Narcogen: yeah Louis Wu: I'll respond to pertinent points by email tomorrow. Freewill: shall we tackle the storyline itself? Narcogen: let's Sep7imus: sure Freewill: mnem wanna try that mnemesis: heh Louis Wu: /me is gone mnemesis: er... story? Frogblast: cya Louis Have Blue: I'm actually about ready to declare this a failure and suggest we switch to a non real time medium, maybe a private forum thread mnemesis: bye Freewill: does it work... is it a success, could it be better, etc. mnemesis: As has been said... Freewill: this is fine mark, wait til I edit it mnemesis: It's a great middle part of a trilogy. mnemesis: Problem being, we weren't expecting a trilogy. rg: you mean a Thrillogy? rg: ;) Have Blue: the story, like everything else, was vastly more ambitious this time around Freewill: tom has the floor mnemesis: Some parts are weird. Gravemind, for instance. mnemesis: Is that some Flood form, or just a kind of uber-zombie thing? Sep7imus: It's a deus ex flora, to bring the two plots together. Have Blue: feeeeeeed meeeeee mnemesis: If it's a Flood form, why does it have no specific, Flood-survival purpose? rg: lol rg: Gravemind looked much better in the Art of book mnemesis: It sure was lucky to be on THAT Halo. Narcogen: heh mnemesis: If MC and Regret ended up on, say, installation 02 or something, the Flood would be SOL Have Blue: unless 02 has its own gravemind Narcogen: if it does, why didn't 04? Freewill: is that more the fault that the story couldn't explain if there were more GMs? Sep7imus: who says 04 didn't? mnemesis: then it'd be something like "Cryptbrain" mnemesis: or CemetaryHead Have Blue: cortana names it gravemind, we don't know how it refers to itself rg: 7of9 Narcogen: if 04 had one, why does 05's manage to find MC and the arbiter but 04's doesn't find... anything and gets blown up? mnemesis: exactly Narcogen: but we're losing etiquette again here Freewill: do you think something triggered GM to assert itself that didn't occur in H1? Sep7imus: anwyay, we can agree that Gravemind sticks out as something unexplained that seems like a big loose end. Narcogen: Mig, I think it depends on whether GM was something in the original story or something added on rg: it's clearly written in the Halo Bible, new testament mnemesis: Maybe Arbiter dying was something the GM had to react to, but I dunno Freewill: interesting mnemesis: And MC, for that matter Frogblast: ooh, I like that mnemesis: They COULD have just NOT had them dying Sep7imus: Nah... when I play Arbiter and MC die ALL THE TIME, with no reaction. Narcogen: heh mnemesis: heh Have Blue: yeah I never thought either of them died Have Blue: the chief was unconscious and the arbiter was falling Freewill: or the possibility of the index actually making it that close to activating the ring? Have Blue: neither of them had a scratch on them mnemesis: MC was blown up by the Covenant ship hitting slipspace from inside orbit Narcogen: well, since the arbiter eventually stops Tartarus from activating the ring Frogblast: scratches use up too much rendering power mnemesis: Arbiter was knocked out by Tartarus Sep7imus: This conversation is a perfect example of the problem with Gravemind... Narcogen: isn't having the Flood combat forms try to kill him prior to that a shocking lack of forethought on GM's part? mnemesis: Unless he's not Flood, but just plain 'ol dead people Sep7imus: we've got NO real information about him, so he's just a blank sheet onto which anyone can tack any speculation they want. Narcogen: Right Have Blue: not really... if it can keep anyone from getting the index, it still wins Narcogen: assuming he controls the flood Freewill: aright Narcogen: which everyone seems to assume, but I am not convinced of Narcogen: ML> yes, but since T can only be killed in a specific way, it doesn't seem as if any number of Flood would manage it :) mnemesis: Anyway, there are other stoory points that are a bit wonky, but not much more than was wonky in H1 Have Blue: yeah, don't forget the introduction of the flood in halo 1 Have Blue: that was as big a swerve as gravemind Freewill: was there anything NEW in the game that you thought just shined? mnemesis: I think one of the things that will define this game years from now will be the lack of an ending Freewill: and bump-mapping is a smart-ass answer :) Sep7imus: the sword is damn fun... especially in single player. Have Blue: specular is an even more smartass answer :P Narcogen: uhh.. moving geometry? Have Blue: the background paintings are simply breathtaking Freewill: i agree with that Narcogen: Bits of Cairo were damn impressive Have Blue: I really would stop and stare at them Freewill: and the music mnemesis: Skulls. ;-) Narcogen: uh.. well.. hmm Narcogen: the music Sep7imus: It was, overall, a really pretty game. Frogblast: I was going to mention the moveable geometry, which I thought was a nice addition. Narcogen: yes, very pretty Sep7imus: I'm a little on the fence about the moving geometry, though. Narcogen: the outside bits of Cairo were damn impressive Have Blue: the cloaking device, again. that's fun Sep7imus: I wish we had more control over it, since sometimes ti made the game feel like a ride. Narcogen: very Marathonesque, too Freewill: like the gondolas? rg: weak mnemesis: I've spent hours on rooftops in Outskirts, just wandering around Narcogen: I realize that I *should* hate the gondolas Have Blue: way too much of the game took place on giant moving objects mnemesis: Even though the game has that tunnel quality that has been mentioned, Narcogen: since they are just as cheap a trick as the Metropolis highway Narcogen: just as linear.. they make it into a rail shooter mnemesis: there's a lot of stuff to go look at around the fringes mnemesis: I like the gondolas Narcogen: BUT Regret is still one of my favorite levels Narcogen: And I like the gondolas in spite of myself Sep7imus: I spent a while trying to hijack a banshee from one of the gondolas, but never managed to do so... jsut to get off of it and fly around. Have Blue: yes, I don't think Halo 2 is any more linear than Halo 1 Have Blue: they just don't disguise it as wel Narcogen: it SEEMS it, though Freewill: AOTCR - mnemesis: One of the things I thought about while playing the underwater part, was how much the game reminded me of Myst. Freewill: when you get the tank... Narcogen: I can't think of any open expanse of territory as large as the fields in AOTCR or TB Have Blue: sep> I'm pretty sure the banshees on that level cannot be hijacked. I was trying too mnemesis: Which was a wierd relation Freewill: you can go one of two ways... even though they're not so wildly divergent... it still added something to the choices Frogblast: The only non-linear part I can remember from Halo 1 was being allowed to pick which marines to rescue first-last in the level Halo Have Blue: some parts of the quaratine zone were pretty big Freewill: that's another good point mnemesis: You rescued them? Narcogen: big... and dark mnemesis: ;-) Frogblast: heh Freewill: i did notice that in the small corridors, there were always side-corridors that you could use if you wished Freewill: not a big deal, but worth mentioning to be fair Sep7imus: little places to duck into and recharge your new improved shield... Narcogen: you're reaching, now, Mig :) Freewill: so let's wrap some of this up, shall we? Sep7imus: okay. Sep7imus: on the one hand, Halo2 is teh best game evar!!! rg: errr Narcogen: heh Sep7imus: on the other, OMG it suxx0rs, they took out teh pistol. Have Blue: can I talk about MP some more? mnemesis: Exactly! Freewill: i'll give each of you a chance to say what you will about Halo 2 that is not negative. Take anything into consideration. Freewill: yes, RG? Narcogen: pick me last, I need to think Freewill: Mr. Glass?? rg: multiplayer is great Freewill: I was responding to your "errr" commment, don't know if you had something else to say rg: oh, the err was in resp to "halo2 is teh best game evar" Freewill: ok Freewill: so you done? rg: sure Freewill: ok, Mark you next rg: you've read my review rg: g/a mnemesis: hater! Have Blue: I think the "authoritarian" matchmaking was a gamble that paid off hugely Have Blue: it solves all the problems of the server list system rg: ditto Have Blue: if Bungie can keep up their end Freewill: too late RG :) Have Blue: and you play with good people, which they have no control over Have Blue: I've had virtually no truly sucky games online Sep7imus: I agree. Have Blue: the servers are not 90% running the same gametype Have Blue: the focus on short, frantic matches is way better than hour-long CTF stalemates Have Blue: g/a Freewill: Tom? mnemesis: Okay, I guess I've got to say that, as much as I agree with most of the bitching tonight, I'm having a lot of fun wandering through the game. mnemesis: I'm guessing that some, if not much, of the negative and sort-of-negative feeling from Halo 1 players is due to our own expectations of H2, fueled by Bungie's own desire not to spoil ANYTHING. Freewill: (feel free, the rest of you, to compose something in text editor while you're waiting, then c&p) mnemesis: Is that non-negative enough? Freewill: if that's all you got, then that's all you got mnemesis: I'm having fun, but still wonder about it once in a while Have Blue: (and not giving themselves time to get some experience and unlearn their halo 1 habits) mnemesis: ga Freewill: sept? Sep7imus: What I really admire about the game is the narrative. I don't know if doing a complicated narrative that shows both sides of a war is the best way to make a FPS game, since it does take away from immersion. Sep7imus: But the real levels of complexity that we got out of seeing the inner workings of the Covenant, the destruction of the "good humans" versus "evil aliens" idea, is a real step up in ethical and intellectual interest. Sep7imus: (I'm a VERY fast typist) (g/a) Freewill: good Freewill: FB? mnemesis: oh, yeah, I liked that part too! Freewill: 2 L8 Freewill: Frogblast? Frogblast: pass Freewill: heh Freewill: Narc? Narcogen: once sec Freewill: ok I'll say something then Freewill: As much as I nitpick over some elements of the game, it's still hit enough of the right spots where I am constantly playing the MP... Freewill: the campaign may be lacking, or it could be me that hasn't adapted to it enough, but the MP has not had any trouble keeping Freewill: my attention. The music is improved and the changes to the physics, for the most part, are improved as well. Freewill: Dual wielding adds alot to the choices you can make while in game, which I like.e Freewill: These all make up for stuff like boss battles, pop-in, glitches here and there, that detract from the game. Freewill: My stats on bungie.net will be proof enough that I will be playing H2 for quite some time. Freewill: g/a narc Narcogen: Halo 2 has lots of fun moments. And it's a very pretty game; I'm constantly calling to my wife "honey, come in here, look at THIS" at something. Narcogen: There are some great new bits of music (although I'd stop short of calling it improved from H1). Narcogen: The Bungie.net stats interface is superb; the inclusion of RSS, although I'm sure it was not done at my request, feels like it was, and makes me feel warm and fuzzy :) Narcogen: And XBL is simply awesome, as it allowed even me, in this part of the world, with a 200+ ping, to have Miguel smack the back of his head against the butt of my SMG four times in my first game online. Freewill: :) Narcogen: g/a Narcogen: :) Freewill: ok I ask for only 2 more things Freewill: i'll make it quick Sep7imus: good... /me needs sleep. Freewill: what do you hope Bungie takes away from our (and all the other) reviews/discussions out there? Freewill: go ahead and type out your answer, ok if it overlaps Have Blue: that jackal snipers suck (but seriously folks) Freewill: i imagine you're all typing Sep7imus: Good question. I think that Bungie really responded to their fans with Halo 2. There's something in it for everyone (tricksters, multiplayers, moviemakers). Narcogen: That there needs to be a balance between the secrecy needed to keep story elements fresh and surprising, and useful fan feedback on things like gameplay and interface Narcogen: I don't mind being kept in the dark about Gravemind, or the Flood coming back mnemesis: I'd like to see them acknowledge that the story just stops, without anything remotely like the thrill of the Maw run, and reassure us that the end of the story is on its way, soon(tm). Frogblast: Seriously reconsider if pop-ups are an acceptable trade for no loading time. Narcogen: I do mind having tradeoffs like popin vs loading time being made in total isolation Sep7imus: sec... uh, thirded. rg: make halo grand again. large, explorable, non-linear environments. give us an ending that'll feel like we accomplished something after 15 hours of gameplay. put more bungie humor and charm in the game. Narcogen: So far I've only seen ONE positive review mention the lack of loading times as a positive Freewill: all fall-damage vs problems with sword Have Blue: I'd like them to spend more time examining why people play the games and what attracts them to it and keeps them playing, and be more careful about what gets removed or tampered with Freewill: all = or rg: g/a Narcogen: Don't reinvent what already works, or change things for change's sake Freewill: last thing... pretend you are NOT a bungie fan Have Blue: I actually would vote for pop-up; it's not that noticable either on my xbox or to me personally Narcogen: pick a select few additions improvements, and polish them to death Freewill: you are just regular joe consumer Sep7imus: i think they shoudl readjust their schedule a abit, so that they stop adding in new things earlier in the development cycle. Then they can spend longer tweaking and trimming. Freewill: now, with that mindset involved.... rate halo 2 on scale of 1-10 Freewill: i give it a 9 mnemesis: ...and keep things consistent from books to game, etc. (or just come out and say that the books AREN'T canon) Narcogen: 8 Have Blue: 9.5. The vast majority of criticism is only comparing it to Halo 1 Narcogen: I'd give the original a 9 Frogblast: at least a 9 Freewill: now... you are back to being a Bungie fan Sep7imus: I'd give it a 9. There aren't that many games that compel me to finsih them. Both Halo games really did that, and remained fun afterwards. rg: 8 Freewill: now rate the game 1 - 10 rg: (multi = 10) Freewill: i give it a 7 Narcogen: yeah, if not a bungie fan.. a 6 or 7 mnemesis: regular consumer: 9.something Narcogen: without being steeped in the mythos, I'm probably wondering what the heck all the fuss is about Have Blue: 9. The SP was just "very good" but the multiplayer is stellar mnemesis: Bungie fan: 7 Sep7imus: wait, how is this a different question? rg: bungie fan also 7 Narcogen: oh, now we're just picking 7 to pick 7 Sep7imus: oh... well, I'd give it a little lower, I guess, then as a regular joe... maybe an 8. rg: as non bungie fan, i will actually say 9.. i revise my rating mnemesis: that's because we're BUNGIE fans! Have Blue: so phrase the question as "once you rate halo 2 a 7, what scale is that on?" ;) Freewill: you are either well versed in Halo1 and know Bungie games... vs, someoene with no expectations just an xbox player Narcogen: on a scale of 7 to 7, I give Halo 7.. a 7! rg: wait... the ending was lame... back to 8 Freewill: hah Sep7imus: okay, got to go to bed. Freewill: interesting answers Freewill: OK Sept, the rest of you Sep7imus: I have a WAY too early day tomorrow. Freewill: thanks for taking the time out to do this Have Blue: again, 9.5 from a n00b, 9.0 from an oldschool Sep7imus: stop answering, MArk. Have Blue: hey not everyone types as fast as you Freewill: i'll try to edit it and submit back to you all to correct and fine tune Sep7imus: i'll hold my breath. rg: what's going to happen to this log? mnemesis: do you want more written stuff? Frogblast: I'll replace that "pass" maybe :) Freewill: heh Freewill: just wait for the email to the list Have Blue: we post segments on the forum to embarrass each other mnemesis: FB: the slowest typist Sep7imus has left this chat. Frogblast: i am very slow yes Frogblast: :( Freewill: heh Freewill: ok good nite all Frogblast: night Have Blue: night all mnemesis: 'sokay :-) Narcogen: nite all rg: l8r mnemesis: night Freewill: good afternoon narc Freewill: :) Narcogen: good morning still Freewill has left this chat. Have Blue: heh... now to jump on xbl ;) rg: errr Have Blue has left this chat. Frogblast has left this chat. rg: was this productive or what? Narcogen: well, I thought so mnemesis: sort of Narcogen: Perhaps not the end-all be-all of Halo 2 reviews, but it was something at least Narcogen: I think it's moral support rg: i think mig just needs a hug Narcogen: we have to convince ourselves we're still Bungie fans even though we say bad things about Halo 2 mnemesis: heh rg: well, there's always 2007 Narcogen: yeah mnemesis: and Wideload mnemesis: ;-) rg: ;) Narcogen: I am rofl'ing over some of the forums insisting that h3 is already done and will be out in six months or less mnemesis: man, I wish rg: that was the missing piece from halo 2. the wideload guys Narcogen: the humor? rg: that too Narcogen: there are attempts at humor.. mostly they seem to fall flat Narcogen: Grunts are just not funny any more rg: the grunts weren't as funny rg: yup mnemesis: I think that boss battles perfectly describe the "new" Bungie and the difficulty with Halo 2 Narcogen: another thing we didn't mention... was the scale of encounters Narcogen: I fully expected larger encounters with more units rg: well, oni had boss battles.. maybe that's their bungie west contribution to h2 Narcogen: but the scale of h2 seems the same, or even smaller mnemesis: There are just too many new, younger people working there who have a less "mature" sense of humor Narcogen: well, oni was in a genre replete with boss battles rg: h2 definitely seemed smaller scale Narcogen: the "nothing but jackal" bit of Delta Halo, for instance rg: yeah, the halo 2 bungie had first time leads working on the missions and levels rg: not enough senior level experience rg: imho mnemesis: I wonder if the 'grizzled ancients' are still enjoying working there, and for how long? rg: well, microsoft stock ain't what it was pre-acquisition. mnemesis: (not that *I* wouldn't want to, of course) mnemesis: Well, I'm out. 'Night. rg: me 2.. l8r guys Narcogen: cya |
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