Ferrex Answers Questions about Arena
As part of the Halo: Reach multiplayer feature reveal that took place in the middle of March, 2010, Tyson "Ferrex" Green, Systems Designer for Halo: Reach, answered a large number of fan-asked questions on the Bungie forum. The thread itself ran 22 pages, so we've pulled out the questions that Ferrex answered, for your reading convenience. There are more than 50 of them.
Posted by: DFA Zandric1
my biggest question : If me and my friends are in different leagues can we still play in the arena together??
Yep.
Posted by: ARBITOR 5
How many players, is there loads of team games?
Depends on the playlist. Expect to see popular Halo 3 formats like 2v2, 4v4. We aren't limited to those, though.
Posted by: gruntking144
is the Divisons seperated by each Rank Milestone? Like
Steel:Recruit??
No, it works differently than Halo 3's Ratings, many of which you could obtain through accumulating EXP. More details will be forthcoming.
Posted by: ArrivedMeat
spartans only???
Our playlists support Spartans Only, Elites Only, various mixtures, player selection, et cetera.
Arena Playlists will probably not mix the two, since there are some significant differences between them now and we don't want to skew the results.
Posted by: JFKES
Do your seasons get added together over time or do you have to start fresh each month?
Each season is a full reset. Your previous season results go into your Service Record for posterity, though.
Posted by: Undemented
Will the Arena feature armor abilities and weapons such as rockets, grenade launchers, etc. Or will it be hardcore guns only.
Too early to tell. We'd like to use the range of Halo's sandbox, but if there are parts that don't work well with the Arena's goals, we'll edit them out. The MLG's excellent process of tweaking and iterating over their desired gametype is something we would like to emulate.
Seasons help us do that. If we introduce Rocket Launchers on some maps in a season, and they don't work out well, we can remove them in the next Season.
Posted by: March Madness
When will the Arena feature objective gametypes?
When we can come up with a good way to quantify a person's individual performance in a team CTF game as a four digit numeric rating. It's very hard to do so--who did more, the person who capped the flag, or the person who defended the base?
We're starting with Slayer because it is (relatively) easy to distill into ratings. The importance of this will be more evident once the Arena is live. :)
I'm sure the forums will help us discuss the subject in the future. Our playlists are, as ever, very adaptive and evolving things.
Posted by: Ollie
What's the point of being in a higher divison? Are there rankings within each division, are there tournaments?
I just don't understand the incentive of being in a higher division.
Just honor and glory. Same reason you might be interested in earning a 50 in Halo 3.
Some people will not be motivated by this, and may instead enjoy just seeing how their Day Rating ebbs and flows every night. Some people may not be interested at all, but for them, we are continuing to improve many of our familiar Halo 3 playlists (in ways we haven't even been able to discuss yet, too!)
Posted by: LnP DeLpHiuS
Will everyone be able to eventually obtain the maximum rank - or is it partially skill based?
The Divisions (which are Arena specific, i.e., Arena only) are exclusively skill based, so no, not everyone will be able to reach the highest Division.
Posted by: Jay120171
Will there be visible TrueSkill levels shown in any of the playlists or will they all be hidden?
They will all be hidden, because we are using a raw, unconstrained form of TrueSkill that does a superb job of skill matching, but which can move very unexpectedly.
Arena Divisions will take it into account, though.
Posted by: TheOtherJesus
Ferex,
Can you explain a little bit about how Active Roster comes into play with the Arena (if it does at all)?
Thank you,
oj
It doesn't, really. Active Roster is a different feature (lots more information coming soon!)
Posted by: Ollie
Also can you confirm that all players will have the same starting weapon?
If not exactly the same starting weapon, then something very close (more info coming soon!) The goal is that all players start off on an even footing.
Posted by: SV Cooper
Are you still using influential ranking ie will you be able to derank and then boost your friends?
No, it will be relatively hard to attack the Arena system the same way Halo 3 could be attacked. Of course, we are realistic--people may find new ways to attack the new system.
Of course, the Banhammer has been evolving too. :)
Posted by: Armedsavage01
Will there be specific maps used for areana exclusively?
Probably not. There will be specific variants, though.
Posted by: Blue Jess
<3 you ferrex, enjoy your lunch while we pile up some more Q's =P
The seasonal rank reset in the arena sounds neat but i'm worried that low/mid level players are just going to be cannon fodder for really good players; I don't fancy getting completely destroyed for several days while highly skilled players claw their way out of the arena's steel/bronze/silver ranks. Any plans to combat this or is it just how things are gonna work?
We have similar concerns, but we're just going to see how things pan out. The Arena is about performance against your peers, and you can have good nights or bad nights (as reflected by your Day Rating) in any Division, from Steel to Onyx.
But like I said, we'll see. It's all well and good to have hopes, but if hopes were horses, beggars would ride.
Posted by: GD27 ShockWav3
Will being ranked "Onyx" in arena be the equivelant to being a 50 in Halo 2 or 3?
Will our highest level in Arena remain on our service record just like Highest skill does in Halo 3?
Will winning affect how fast we rank up in competitive team games or is it just individual?
It's hard to map Onyx to 50 (or 45, or whatever) without knowing how big the population is. Suffice it to say that being in Onyx will be an accomplishment you can be legitimately proud of.
Your Season Results will be logged in your Service Record and on b.net, but your highest Season will probably not get any special treatment.
Winning in team games still matters. But turning in a poor performance on a winning team (i.e., being carried by more skilled teammates) will not be a good way to level up.
Posted by: hunkyandrich
Can you see which league / division (or whatever it's called) you are in in the arena?
Yes. As soon as are Rated on enough Days (e.g., 5 days), you'll see what Division you're in. You can go up or down from there, but it'll give you some idea of who your peers are.
Posted by: Xv ArCaNe vX
Ferrex...
If you are around I would really love an answer to this question:
In the recent info regarding arena it was said that players would have to play EVERY day to earn an overall ranking in each months league.... is this true?
I love Halo like a miner loves gold man.... but EVERY day sometimes aint possible!
No, not every day. We're still adjusting numbers, but let's say you need to be Rated on 5 days to qualify for a Division. If that were the case, you can play any 5 days you want.
And you can play more than 5 days if you think you can do better and move up to a higher Division. But you have to play at least that many days to be assigned to a Division. No more.
Posted by: Saxophone18
I have a question.
Will our arena stauts/rank effect our rank in the other playlists ?
No.
Posted by: VEF214
Will we be able to view Arena games in Theater mode?
I have to ask this.
Absolutely. I hope that high Rated Arena films are a popular commodity in the (new and improved!) File Share.
Posted by: erac2detsaw2
My question for the Arena is this: will Bungie fix the language boosting trick that was prevalent in Halo 3? With more options available to choose how you want to be matched, I feel it would be much simpler to exploit a form of this. Obviously in Arena, people will want to be in the highest division so I feel it could become a problem.
Yes, this is fixed. Our playlists can now be configured to match in two stages: find teammates, then find opponents. Each stage can have different parameters.
In Arena playlists, for example, we would consider Language Preference for finding teammates, but not for finding opponents. So (ideally, population permitting) you'll be on a team with people who speak your language, but your opponents will be the most appropriate skill and ping match. Somewhat harder to exploit.
Posted by: MLG Lies
Ferrex,
Are you familiar with how Blizzard is currently operating their ladder system in the Starcraft 2 Beta?
Afraid not, I haven't had a chance to install the Beta. :(
Posted by: MLG Lies
Will each grouping have separate divisions? Will there be an Onyx 1 and an Onyx 2, or will all Onyx players be ranked together? Additionally, will there be a way to view the players in your division?
One last question:
Are there any plans to incorporate teams into this system? Let's say a friend and I compete in a 2v2 ladder, are there any plans to rank teams of players against other teams? As an extension of this, are there plans to implement a clan system with the arena?
There will be some subdivision within divisions when the competition is most heated. Think "Gold Division, Top 5%".
There are no plans to implement a clan system specifically for Arena. If we did Clan support (not saying we are, mind you), we would support them across the board.
Posted by: Cows say meeeow
On topic: Is arena the only ranked playlist?
They are currently the only playlists which will display a playlist specific ranking/rating/etc.
But all of our other playlists are built on the same tech that made Halo 3's Ranked playlists work, which means they will have strong skill matching and high match quality (population permitting, as always.)
Posted by: YahwehFreak4evr
If we were to use Halo 3 as an analogy for the Halo: Reach matchmaking system would Arena be akin to a specific playlist (e.g. Rumble Pit, Big Team Battle et cetera) or would it be a grouping (e.g. Ranked, Social, Hardcore) or none of the above?
It doesn't really map to Halo 3 analogies. This is a new beast.
The old favorites from Halo 3 will still be there, as improved as we can make them. Arena is something being added on top, to scratch a particular itch.
Posted by: Ronaem
Are you guys putting just as much love into the Social Playlists of the game as you are the: "Super Hardcore Arena Playlists?"
Absolutely. This isn't an "us or them" thing to us. :)
Posted by: Ghostrider2121
What are seasons?
They're like sports seasons, except over a shorter timeframe. For example, an August 2010 Season would start on August 1, end on August 30, and would only count games played between those two dates. A new season would start on September 1.
Posted by: Shadow Freedom
Will there be an Arena Season in the beta?
Gotta test it, right? :)
Posted by: AngryNinjaHippo
Does the Arena rule out any chances of a specific 'MLG' playlist?
No.
Posted by: LnP DeLpHiuS
I know you have a ton of questions to answer but...
Once in Onyx Division will you permanently remain in Onyx Division, or do you have to earn it month after month?
Thanks.
If you want to be able to state "yeah, I'm Onyx this Season", then yes, you'll have to earn it each Season.
Posted by: DivinePistol
Are there going to be vehicles in the Arena?
(And all other questions about parts of the sandbox, like abilities or specific weapons)
Our goal is to only include parts of the sandbox which lend themselves well to a competitive but even game. If there was a Scorpion on the map, and one person could go on a tear with a dozen kills with it, then the Arena would turn into "first person to the Scorpion gets a high rating!"
That is not our goal. The Arena is not intended to be a measure of how fast you are at getting to the single rocket launcher spawn.
Posted by: Il Gh0s7 II
Are there going to be rewards--other than honor and glory--for being a top ranked Arena player? Like armor permutations, b.net mentions, etc?
No. We do not want people who do not enjoy Arena style playlists to feel compelled to do them to get the helmet that they really want.
The Arena and its Ratings/Divisions are their own reward, intended for the people who crave that particular flavor of reward.
Posted by: DivinePistol
Ferrex, i Have a couple more questions:
Are there 5 ranks for every season or every day?
Every game, you will get a Rating.
E.g., 1340
Every day that you play at least X games (say, 3 games), your best X games will be averaged to give you a Day Rating.
E.g., 1314
Every Season that you get rated in Y days (say, 5 days), you will be assigned to a Division based on your performance across all games in the entire Season.
E.g., Silver Division
Posted by: Col AKeller
Will you be able to bring in a party to arena, or is it a single player entrance into the playlist like slayer?
You can bring in a party, but only up to the team size. E.g., 4 player parties in a 4v4 playlist.
Posted by: N3cro
How big of a role will the social search criteria play into finding teams in the arena?
Will the social search options play a role into the types of teams you get matched up against?
In Arena, Social Preferences will matter a lot less than Skill. When finding opponents, probably not at all. At most, they'd be a tie-breaker.
Posted by: Dionysus
What did you have for lunch? :D
On topic: Will this seasonal class tier thing be the only ranking system in reach or is it just exclusive for arena?
Thanks for taking the time to answer all these.
A chicken chalupa, and because it's Friday and I'm doing forum posts, a marguerita.
Seasonal Divisions and Ratings are Arena only. As for other ranking systems that people are asking about, sorry: "more details Soon." :)
Posted by: Gig4t3ch
What would happen if I were Onyx division and chose to search with a friend who hadn't played a game of Halo yet? Would I get matched with players in Onyx division or players in lower divisions?
They will match with Onyx players, equal to the highest player in the party. The Arena is not a place to bring a date.
Posted by: TOM T 117
How will you see your position within a league? I know that global leaderboards have brought problems in the past.
Your Division assignment approximately indicates your position in a playlist. There is no leaderboard beyond that. Our experience with leaderboards has been that they strongly motivate players to cheat, and ultimately only really matter to the top sliver of players anyway. Do you really care if you're #12000 or #11990?
Posted by: TOM T 117
In team based gametypes is it possible for the system to rank you as a team, rather than just individually? I may or may not be probing about the possibility of clans...
It is possible, in that Halo 3 did just that, but Arena playlists rank players as individuals. (And yes, victory as a team does affect that ranking, but not so much that the worst player on the winning team ranks above the best player on the losing team, a la Halo 3.)
Posted by: Deathtrap462
Does the numerical rank decrease or increase with greater skill? By that, I mean are we striving to get 0001 or, for example, 5000?
The Rating (it's not a ranking, because it isn't relative to other players) will vary within a range of 0 (far, far worse than the worst imaginable performance) and 2000 (an inconceivably good showing.) Most ratings will be around 1000-1500. It'll be easier to see when we publish the formula.
The ideal is that players strive to make it better, such that you can say "hot damn, I cracked 1600 last night", and your friends will know what that means.
Posted by: The Horsefly
Are you approaching The Arena with an interest in having a balanced game while still keeping a varied sandbox in play?
We always have that interest. We sometimes allow ourselves to fall short of that goal to add fun things to the game, like Gravity Hammers and Mongooses.
Or is it Mongoosen?
Posted by: Sharpest
Will quitting out of matches have an effect on one's Arena ranking?
Yes, in as much as it will count as a loss, and if you do it too much, the Banhammer will apply a special new kind of punishment targeted specifically at quitters. (No, I can't detail it right now.)
Posted by: SilentStorm20
If you were to incorporate objective games later, would you be required to keep them in their own playlist(s), or would you be able to use different forms of ranking for each individual game, enabling you to create playlists that are a mix of slayer and objective?
I can answer this on philosophical terms: if we added an Objective Arena gametype, with a good, robust Rating scheme that didn't ruin the gametype ("yeah, imma betray you so i get points for carrying the flag, sux2bu"), we would put it in its own playlist so that players can measure their skill specifically in that gametype.
Posted by: The Best Dominat
Ferrex do you personally think that because of this arena more people will be camping?
I don't think so, no. The way the Rating formula works, it is important to not throw your life away, but not so important that sitting behind a corner with a shotgun and going 5-0 in a game to 50 means you get a good Rating.
But we'll see. I'm sure some players will still find this to be optimal.
Posted by: DivinePistol
Will the stats and ratings from the Arena be posted on Bungie.net? And if yes can you specify wether it's the Beta Arena's stats and ratings, the actual game[Halo Reach] itself's stats and ratings or both?
Please and Thank you :P
I think these are both a safe bet. We like stats on b.net.
Posted by: MATCLAN
Will the new voting system be restricted in the Arena as there is (currently) a notable lack of Objective games?
Also, have you guys tweaked the Trueskill system as you did for Halo 3 (but obviously in a different way, such as making the system more fluid) or is it left in its original form this time around?
Arena playlist voting options will definitely be different. For example, you might find yourself voting more on the map you want to play than the gametype.
And the way we're using TrueSkill this time is closer to its original form and intended purpose, which (as I've mentioned before) it's really quite good at.
Posted by: DivinePistol
Ferrex, are you answering questions in this thread only or others too?
I pop into other threads sometimes, but I'm sticking to this one because it's on-topic and I'm trying to only answer Arena questions right now.
(So to those of you asking non-Arena questions: I am reading them, but I don't want to go off topic right now. Sorry!)
Posted by: somerandomperson
How far is the skill level between someone in the 99th percentile of Onyx and the 1st percentile of Gold? Would the Onyx player own the Gold player, or would it be very even?
Same goes from players in the same division, IE 1st percentile Gold and 99th percentile gold.
The highest player in Gold and the lowest player in Onyx would be practically identical, existing as neighbors right on the very threshold of the Divisions.
I can't speak to the difference in players within a Division, though. Besides being different per Division (for example, there might be a wider skill range in Bronze than Silver), I just don't know our Arena players yet. :)
Posted by: til 3
Legit 1200? So what division does that put you in?
It doesn't. It will make more sense later, but a Rating only tells you how good you did against the people you played against (i.e., your peers.)
You could have a Silver Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200, or an Onyx Division player who gets a Day Rating of 1200. Both of those players know "ugh... I didn't play very well* last night. I need to do better."
Short version:
Division = who your peers are
Rating = how well you played against your peers
*1200 is not very good. :(
Posted by: PsychoTEX
I know its hard to know what the population might look like in terms of sheer numbers, but do you have a rough target percentage for how many players would be in Onyx, Gold, etc.?
We won't be comfortable answering that till after the Beta and we've seen some real numbers. Sorry. :(
Posted by: cagman40
I thik a lot of us here will not be able to play on a daily basis. I personally can only play on weekends. Does this meen I will basically never rank up? I believe people with more time on their hands will have a huge advantage from my point of view at this moment.
Quantity only matters until you get enough games and days to get assigned to a Division.
Quality defines which Division you get assigned to, and that's what ultimately goes in your Service Record. Quality >>> Quantity.
Posted by: hunkyandrich
What about August 31? You can't leave a day out :(
Does August have 31 days? Crap. I knew I should have checked.
Sorry to tell you guys, but your 360 probably won't boot up on August 31. :(
Posted by: Ollie
I thought you said that your rating per match was not relative to your peers' performance.
Now when you say "how well you plated against your peers" do you mean the people you just played in a match or the division as a whole?
My "Division" right now is "employees at Bungie". I haven't been doing too well in playtests. :)
Rating is against opponents in that game. In a large enough population (like a few thousand, or tens of thousands), Matchmaking will do a pretty good job of putting you in games where your opponents are, in fact, your peers. Especially with TrueSkill being freed up to do its magic (fun factoid: in a large population, TrueSkill can accurately predict your relative skill level in less than a dozen games.)
Posted by: hunkyandrich
If I play the minimum number of required games and a get a good enough rating to be Silver, will I stay silver the whole month?
Basically I'm asking if the leagues are divided by the number of players, or point boundaries.
Also, what incentive is there for an Onyx player to play more Arena that month?
If you land smack dab in the middle of Silver Division, and your game neither improves or worsens, you'll probably stay Silver. If you improve, however, you can still go up.
A player who comes in at Onyx after a couple of days of winning most or all of his games (even against challenging opponents) and stops could be pushed out if more players move up above him. Divisions are distributed across the population.
Guys, this has been fun, but I need to get back to work for the rest of the day. There's another info drop coming soon, so stay tuned.
Thanks all for the questions, and sorry to anyone that I missed (or couldn't answer.)
Cheers!
[6pm PST, 19 Mar - Ferrex seems to have come back for more...]
Posted by: Zolner MD
Ferrex, when you say "full reset," does this mean that our connection speed history/reliability is reset as well? If I decide to upgrade my ISP over the course of my Halo:Reach career, will Reach's matchmaking take note immediately (...or will I be stuck with my previously paultry connection speed history, akin to Halo 3's matchmaking)?
No, we would not be resetting that kind of data. But I believe we're handling that particular problem you describe a bit better.
Posted by: Kapura
Nice avatar, ferrex. I think rampancy on the octagon is a little more hardcore.
Will you be able to see other players' rating after a match like you could check the Kill/Death of opponents after Halo 3? Or will only you or your team be able to see your rating?
Always happy seeing people use that emblem.
The plan right now is that you'll be able to see the current game Rating for all players, but in the lobby you'll only see Ratings for party members.
The Day Rating is for your own information, not for making you a target of heckling (or for flaunting, except among friends.)
Posted by: Dreezy12
But if I wanted to, I could eventually play enough and play well so I could get there, right?
If you played enough and improved your game over time, then yes, you could. You won't be able to grind it out without improving your game, though.
Posted by: JABBERWOCK xeno
So in the arena, will it force you to be a spartan or an elite if you join a all spartan or elite game, or will it group players by their player model?
We seriously considered this, but ended up deciding that splitting the population along Spartan/Elite lines would not be good for matchmaking speed and quality.
So no--if you join a Spartan Only playlist, you'll be automatically switched to a Spartan. Ditto for Elite Only playlists.
Posted by: Nedus
Ferrex, did the WoW arena system have any influence on the Reach arena? If so, what sort of influence?
Also, Precious has dropped like 5 ribbons for us. lul
Edit: Ok, so apparently I missed the bit about WoW's influence on the Reach arena in the Shacknews article.
A couple of us here have some experience with it, but the nature of the games are really quite different. Different problems, different solutions.
And still no Ribbons for us. :(
Posted by: Killer46 TH
Got a couple questions.
What is to stop player from hitting the arena hard, fast and the minimal amount of times so they can attain and keep a high k/d ratio?
What is going to stop highly skilled players from vsing lesser skilled players from the start?
Nothing, but we're not using a direct K/D ratio for that reason. 1 kill / 0 deaths = infinite rating! Woo!
Now a player who plays the first 5 days of the season and dominates every game might end up in Onyx at the end of those 5 days (in fact, he almost certainly would), but that's no guarantee that he'll stay there as more players start putting in games. As mentioned earlier, the distribution of players could change as the Season goes on and push an idle player out of a Division as more players fill in.
And highly skilled players will be matched against players of similar skill. If they de-rank to gain access to lower skill ranges, well, that doesn't really help them at all--they'll end up in a lower Division. And I don't think anyone will really care if you managed to get a sick 1650 rating on one day if the end of the Season places you in a low Division.
(That said, deranking is a ranking system abuse and we do have some countermeasures.)
Posted by: Mace NZ
Hey ferrex
If say a bronze division player played with a gold in the gold division would the bronze player get more expirence/more likely to go up for getting kills than they would in a bronze division game?
Thanks
If the Bronze Division player placed higher than the Gold Division players, then TrueSkill would definitely bump him up further than if he had beaten other Bronze Division players.
But if he craters in that game and comes in last, well, he probably won't gain anything at all, even if his team ends up winning. (On the upside, he probably won't go down at all either, though.)
Posted by: PsychoTEX
In Halo 3, some game results would be thrown out by TrueSkill because they occurred in what TrueSkill deemed as an uninteresting match (not competitive, not matched properly). That's the way I understand it from the research I've done with Microsoft FAQs and articles and whatnot. Games could also be tossed out due to them being unreliable (people quitting, for instance). But that system also only took into account wins and losses.
Will the new system operate much the same in terms of games being thrown out? Or will it be a bit more loose? Also, was anything I said up there actually true?
Much of the above is true.
We should be feeding better data into the system, so fewer games should be thrown out. More importantly, the Arena playlists will be a little less confused (and therefore uncertain) about how to handle parties with mixed skill, which was a common problem in Halo 3.
Posted by: UNMERCIFUL GOD
Will there be any longstanding penalty for playing hardcore for say the first couple of seasons, trying something else ( so taking some seasons off ), and then coming back to play again? I see it will lower your division if you go idle so week 1 players do not sit at the top but is it a completely new slate every season so if I take time off I can come back un-judged for some more mayhem?
The system doesn't care if you don't play for a Season, or even for a few weeks inside of a Season. There's no penalty for taking time off, just that you're standing still while the community moves on.
Posted by: xXDarkCrimsonXx
Just so I am clear, one last time, playing Social playlists will not make my overall level on Bungie.net go up, correct?
I will remain a "visible" level 1 as long as I stay out of the Ranked playlists, right?
There's no more concept of "Ranked" and "Social" playlists, and no more "overall level" on Bungie.net driven by playlist skill. So the answer is "mu".
The new "overall level" mechanism should be described in greater detail soon though.
Posted by: NewRadical12
Will your arena statistics, standings, rankings, etc. as a SPARTAN be separate from those of you as an Elite?
Not necessarily, but because those stats are all tracked per Arena playlist, and Arena playlists will likely be either Spartan or Elite but not both, the answer is effectively yes.
Posted by: Killer46 TH
So the Arena will be matched by TrueSkill and the ratings show (without the number) what your trueskill value is?
Just this time trueskill takes into account k/d ratio's and other statistics?
Ratings only show you what your performance in a game or over the course of a day was. There's no TrueSkill information encoded into it.
Your Division is largely determined by TrueSkill, though.
Posted by: GD27 ShockWav3
Is arena ffa only?
No. Arena playlists can be any format.
Posted by: GD27 ShockWav3
Will a players highest skill in arena be visable through their service tag (like highest skill is in halo 3) or will people have to go online to view it?
Hopefully (from my understanding) earning ranks will not be repetetive and skill level will be easily communicated. What is the plan?
A player's most recent Season results will be visible in game in his Service Record. Longer term stat keeping will be done on b.net. There's no special callout in-game for a highest Season.
Posted by: BRss v
Question:
Will Arena speed of play be of MLG speed or normal Team Slayer H3 speed?
Thanks and keep up the good work
Tom
If we looked at the state of the game and decided it was too slow, we would certainly have this option. I imagine we will ship with default movement speeds, though--if we're confident enough to ship the game with them as default, then we're probably pretty happy with how they play.
Posted by: Killer46 TH
p.s ferrex = tyson right?
Yep.
Ok, I think that's all of the Q's I can tackle right now, and I do need to get going. Enjoy your weekends folks!
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